Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Ian Urbina returns to “Why Should We Care About the Indo-Pacific” to preview Season 2 of his acclaimed Outlaw Ocean podcast, exposing the hidden world of human rights and environmental abuses on the high seas—from brutal labor conditions on distant-water fishing vessels to coercive processing centers in China, India, and beyond.

Urbina, founder and director of the Outlaw Ocean Project, dives into the maritime underworld and examines what’s changed—and what remains unchanged—since his first appearance on the pod. The conversation unfolds in two parts:

1. China’s Distant-Water Fleet & At-Sea Abuses

- Fleet scale and state ties: China’s distant-water fleet dwarfs all others, with estimates ranging from 2,700 to 17,000 vessels; Urbina’s team calculated about 6,500 ships, one-third of which have direct state involvement.

- Illegal fishing and geopolitical power: Chinese longliners and squid jiggers routinely engage in illegal, unreported, and unregulated (IUU) fishing—invading marine protected areas, overfishing, and crossing exclusive economic zones—thereby gaining economic advantage and shaping “facts on the water” to support territorial claims.

- Life on board squid jiggers: These industrial vessels use hundreds of bright lights and metal arms to jig for squid. Crews of 30–50 often endure two- to three-year contracts at sea with no shore leave, cramped and unsanitary conditions, malnutrition, and no Wi-Fi. Laborers—initially foreign but increasingly rural Chinese—face debt bondage, violence, passport confiscation, and forced labor.

2. On-Land Processing & Global Supply Chains

- Scope expansion: Season 2 follows seafood from ship to shore, uncovering forced labor in processing plants across China, India, and along the North Korean border.

- Chinese processing centers: Utilizing open-source intelligence and encrypted Chinese platforms, Urbina’s team documented state-orchestrated labor transfers of Uyghurs from Xinjiang to coastal seafood factories—facilities that supply major global buyers, including U.S. government cafeterias. Workers face locked compounds, surveillance, and coercion akin to modern slavery.

- North Korean laborers: Thousands of North Korean women are trafficked into Chinese factories under government vetting. Held in locked dorms and subjected to widespread sexual abuse and forced overtime, these women are trapped by debts owed to smugglers and extortion from border officials.

- Indian shrimp processing: A whistleblower’s 50,000-page dossier exposed debt bondage, physical confinement, and antibiotic-tainted shrimp at processing plants in India. As Western buyers migrated from Thailand to India, the same labor abuses reemerged, threatening food safety and ethical sourcing.

By weaving narrative storytelling with hard data and firsthand testimony, this episode underscores the urgent need for transparent supply chains and international enforcement to protect vulnerable workers and marine ecosystems. Visit TheOutlawOcean.com for updates, subscribe to the newsletter, and tune into Season 2 for deep-dive investigations that track seafood—and human exploitation—from ocean depths to dinner tables.

In this episode, hosts Ray Powell and Jim Carouso interview Professor Gordon Flake, CEO of the Perth USAsia Centre, about South Korea's political transformation following six months of unprecedented turmoil.

The discussion centers on South Korea's remarkable democratic resilience after former President Yoon Suk-yeol's shocking martial law declaration in December 2024, which triggered his impeachment and removal from office, and Lee Jae-myeong's subsequent election victory. Flake emphasizes that despite the chaos—including four different acting presidents—South Korea's institutions held firm, demonstrating the strength of its democracy.

The new president faces immediate pressure from Trump administration tariffs affecting Korean exports, with the economy shrinking in the first quarter and auto sales to the US down significantly. Flake warns against conflating trade negotiations with alliance burden-sharing discussions.

Lee Jae-myeong has already engaged with President Trump and Japanese Prime Minister Ishiba, signaling continuity in South Korea's internationalist approach despite his progressive background. The episode explores Korea's potential participation in regional frameworks like Quad-Plus and the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Tensions are escalating in the Yellow Sea's Provisional Measures Zone, where China has installed aquaculture facilities without coordination with Seoul. This represents a new kinetic challenge similar to South China Sea disputes.

Flake highlights opportunities for US-Korea naval cooperation, noting Korean shipbuilders like Hanwha Ocean's acquisition of Philadelphia shipyard and increased stakes in Australian defense contractor Austal.

Flake predicts Lee's first 100 days will prioritize economic growth over progressive social policies due to external pressures. His attendance at the G7 meeting represents crucial engagement with like-minded democracies amid regional uncertainty (this episode was recorded before President Lee elected not to attend the G7).

The episode provides essential insights into how South Korea's democratic institutions weathered the crisis, while positioning the country as a consequential middle power navigating complex US-China competition and regional security challenges.

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• Produced by Ian Ellis-Jones and IEJ Media, on X, @ianellisjones
• Sponsored by BowerGroupAsia, a strategic advisory firm that specializes in the Indo-Pacific

In this episode, hosts Ray Powell and Jim Carouso explore the critical concept of techno-nationalism with expert Alex Capri, author of "Techno-Nationalism: How It's Reshaping Trade, Geopolitics and Society."

Techno-nationalism represents the intersection of technology, national security, and economic power in the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Capri explains how nation-states are leveraging 12 key power-multiplier technologies--including semiconductors, artificial intelligence, quantum science, hypersonics, biotech, and advanced manufacturing--to maintain competitive advantages and protect national interests.

The discussion reveals how China's strategic approach to technology development caught the West off-guard. While Western companies focused on trade liberalization and efficiency, China implemented long-term techno-nationalist policies, including preemptive decoupling in critical sectors like telecommunications and banking. The Great Firewall, established in the mid-1990s, was an early indicator of China's protective stance toward strategic technologies.

Capri outlines the six core elements of modern techno-nationalism:

1️⃣ Weaponization of supply chains through export controls and investment restrictions

2️⃣ Strategic decoupling from potential adversaries

3️⃣ Offshoring reversal via reshoring and friend-shoring initiatives

4️⃣ Innovation mercantilism through government industrial policy

5️⃣ Tech diplomacy for strategic alliance building

6️⃣ Hybrid Cold War dynamics amid ongoing commercial activity

The Huawei 5G ban exemplifies techno-nationalist concerns about critical infrastructure security. The company's global telecommunications footprint, built through massive state support, raised red flags about potential surveillance capabilities. Similarly, TikTok represents the dual-use nature of modern technology—commercially popular but potentially strategically valuable for data collection and analysis.

Despite China's advances, the US maintains advantages in university systems, defense technology, and innovation ecosystems. However, success requires strategic partnerships with allies, particularly in semiconductor manufacturing and critical mineral supply chains. The conversation highlights concerns about policy continuity across political administrations and the importance of sustained investment in STEM education and public-private partnerships.

Techno-nationalism isn't just about US-China competition—it's a global phenomenon affecting all nation-states as they navigate security, economic stability, and technological sovereignty in an interconnected world.

• Follow our podcast on X, @IndoPacPodcast, LinkedIn or BlueSky
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• Sponsored by BowerGroupAsia, a strategic advisory firm that specializes in the Indo-Pacific