In this deep and lively conversation, Patrick and Jonah continue their journey through Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians, entering chapter 6 — the passage addressing children, parents, and the challenge of obedience. Together they explore the profound tension and mystery in Paul’s words about submission, obedience, and how they can easily be misused or distorted into oppressive tools. At the same time, they consider how obedience can be transformed and transfigured through Christ into a liberating path of love, discernment, and freedom.

Drawing on personal experiences as fathers and priests, Patrick and Jonah reflect on moments of healthy authority, rightful correction, and also times when children (and all of us) must discern when voices are not “in the Lord.” The discussion expands into themes of generational inheritance, the role of parents in blessing the earth, and the deeper spiritual call to hear and follow the true voice of God — which may come through others but ultimately lives in the listening heart.

Themes Discussed

• Introduction to Ephesians 6: The closing exhortations before the “armor of God” passage.
• The continuity of the theme of submission and ordering oneself rightly — in families, communities, and before Christ.
• The radical equality in Paul’s new vision: children, wives, and bondservants are all addressed directly as fellow members of Christ’s body.
• The nuanced meaning of obedience “in the Lord” — not blind rule-following, but discerning and heeding true words of life.
• Parenting experiences: moments of both failure and grace in bringing up children in the “instruction of the Lord.”
• The danger of obedience distorted into tyranny and the church’s historical complicity in oppression.
• The role of listening (shema) in Jewish and Christian traditions — as deeply connected to the will and the path of freedom.
• Children (and all of us) learning to test the spirits and to recognize what is truly good and true.
• Reflections on generational burdens and blessings — breaking patterns to offer freedom to the next generation.
• The Prodigal Son as a lens for parenting adult children and trusting the Lord of destiny.

Key Scripture

• Ephesians 6:1-4 — Children, obey your parents in the Lord…
• John 8:12 — I am the light of the world…
• The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) — Hear, O Israel…
• Luke 15: The Prodigal Son — referenced as a parable of trust and freedom.

Closing Thoughts

Patrick and Jonah close with wonder at the figure of Christ Jesus as the one who listens and obeys the Father perfectly — revealing true obedience as something rooted in love, freedom, and the pursuit of the good and true. This vision offers a path beyond oppressive systems into the joyful responsibility of becoming listeners and doers of the Word.

Next episode will continue into the more challenging and provocative passage regarding bondservants and masters, exploring the radical implications of Paul’s message for unjust systems and relationships.

Support the show

The Light in Every Thing is a podcast of The Seminary of The Christian Community in North America. Learn more about the Seminary and its offerings at our website. This podcast is supported by our growing Patreon community. To learn more, go to www.patreon.com/ccseminary.

Thanks to Elliott Chamberlin who composed our theme music, “Seeking Together,” and the legacy of our original show-notes and patreon producer, Camilla Lake.

After a remarkable more than year-long journey exploring Paul's letter to the Ephesians, we're pausing to create space for your voice. This brief but important episode invites our listening community to reflect on the extensive series we've created together and share questions that remain as we prepare to conclude our study.

Our exploration of Ephesians has traversed complex theological terrain, particularly when we encountered Chapter 5's challenging passages. These sections contain some of the most frequently misinterpreted verses in Christian history—texts that should nurture community but have often been weaponized instead. Throughout our series, we've sought to uncover the authentic Christ-centered message behind these words while acknowledging the harmful ways they've sometimes been understood.

What questions linger for you? Which insights transformed your understanding? How has this journey through Ephesians resonated with your spiritual life? Whether you're a longtime listener or recently discovered our podcast, we welcome your voice.

Visit patreon.com/ccseminary to submit an audio question or written comment by May 17, 2025.

Selected questions will be addressed in upcoming episodes as we prepare to wrap up this profound journey through one of Christianity's most impactful letters. Your perspective matters to us—we can't wait to hear how Ephesians has spoken to you.

Support the show

The Light in Every Thing is a podcast of The Seminary of The Christian Community in North America. Learn more about the Seminary and its offerings at our website. This podcast is supported by our growing Patreon community. To learn more, go to www.patreon.com/ccseminary.

Thanks to Elliott Chamberlin who composed our theme music, “Seeking Together,” and the legacy of our original show-notes and patreon producer, Camilla Lake.

Patrick and Jonah venture into the spiritual territory of the body as they explore the mysteries of marriage through a Christological lens. Beginning with Paul's words to the Ephesians, they uncover how these ancient instructions offer not a rulebook but a transformative imagination for our most intimate relationships.

The conversation takes an unexpected turn when they reframe the traditional understanding of marriage roles. Rather than imposing abstract structures, they suggest that Paul is inviting us to "christen" our existing relationships—to infuse them with a consciousness permeated by Christ within the organic realities we already inhabit. This approach honors each person as an individuality first, recognizing the inherent dignity that precedes any gendered considerations.

Their most radical insight emerges when discussing physical intimacy. "I actually don't have a right ever to the body of another," Patrick reflects, suggesting that Christ models a complete absence of entitlement even within marriage. Just as Christ stands at the door and knocks but never invades our dignity, they propose that husbands are called to relinquish any sense of rights to their wives' bodies. This represents a profound shift from self-centered longing to Christ-like desire that seeks the wholeness and blessing of the other.

Perhaps most moving is their reflection on being understood and accepted despite our shadows. When our partner, who knows our darkest aspects, still chooses to bear us — to accept and even honor us — we experience a profound form of grace. "I feel consecrated through that," Jonah shares, pointing to how this mirrors Christ's unconditional love.

This conversation offers a tender, deeply thoughtful and rare approach to marriage that transcends rigid gender roles while honoring the unique challenges of embodiment. It invites listeners to reimagine their relationships through the lens of Christ's patient understanding and complete self-offering, creating space for a love that truly sanctifies.

Support the show

The Light in Every Thing is a podcast of The Seminary of The Christian Community in North America. Learn more about the Seminary and its offerings at our website. This podcast is supported by our growing Patreon community. To learn more, go to www.patreon.com/ccseminary.

Thanks to Elliott Chamberlin who composed our theme music, “Seeking Together,” and the legacy of our original show-notes and patreon producer, Camilla Lake.